Pope Francis ‘gave his life for all’ but he failed on one crucial challenge

Fr FB: My primary sense was that he was a fella who actually enjoyed the job, despite its enormous burdens, and I think he had a devilish sense of humour. The first time I met him I went with a bottle of wine from the Sevenhill winery in the Clare Valley – the first Jesuits to come to Australia were Austrian, and the first thing they did was to plant the vines. So I gave him this bottle and explained that it was Jesuit wine from Australia, and as he took it in his hand he looked up, smiled and he said, “Ah, aqua sacra” – holy water – “thank you very much.” We were surrounded by a group of young married couples who were there to get his blessing and we all had a great laugh together. And the next time I met him was when I accompanied the first Aboriginal principal of a school in the Northern Territory, Miriam-Rose Ungunmerr-Baumann, a very devout Catholic. And so I will never forget the meeting of her with the Pope, where they were both in their wheelchairs and they both exuded complete humility and complete affection for each other.

Fitz: And if they gave you the chisel for the papal tombstone and said, “You’ve got just a few words to write, starting with ‘Here lies Pope Francis’.” What are you choosing for his epitaph?

Fr FB: Well, of course, we know what he wants on his epitaph, and it’s simply one word – “Franciscus” – which is extraordinary. But having said that, yes, I’d chisel: “Pope Francis, who gave his life for all, especially the poor and those on the margins”. This Pope made it very clear he wasn’t so much concerned about questions of doctrine and dogma, but more on an absolute insistence on pastoral solicitude, where you extend forgiveness, understanding, reconciliation [and] mercy to the person in front of you – whoever they may be. Popes in the past never went public about that aspect of pastoral solicitude. The brilliance of Francis was he basically said, “Look, we’re sick to death of doing this doctrine stuff, and it’s there in the books, and we all know what it is, but basically where we’re failing is extending that sort of pastoral solicitude to anybody and everybody.”

Fitz: You describe him as a reformer but surely he did little to shift the dial for women in the church?

Fr FB: Absolutely, and it’s one of the things I’ve been critical of him for. He did set up two commissions of inquiry into women deacons, and each time he fudged it – he basically did not release the complete findings of those inquiries and he did not further the agenda. And on that I think he did fail – in part because some of the very conservative people in the Vatican were fighting very strong rearguard actions. This included our own Cardinal George Pell. Just before Pell died he was issuing statements about how toxic and what a disgrace this papacy was, and all that sort of thing. So Francis had some very big forces at play that he had to contend with. The question is going to be whether or not his replacement continues that process.

Fitz: So can you give us a form guide for the next Pope? Is there a Jesuit among them you’re backing home?

Fr FB: No, I’m not backing anyone because, as I say, anyone who backs someone as Pope going into a conclave is even more of a fool than anyone betting on the favourite at the Melbourne Cup, particularly this time. In the past, the cardinals going into conclave were a fairly predictable group who all knew each other. But this Pope made cardinals in East Timor, Papua New Guinea, Tonga and Mongolia, among other places. As a group, how they will all vote is unknown.

Fitz: If they made you Pope, would you allow priests to marry and allow women to be priests?

Fr FB: Yes, I would.

Fitz: And yet, once again, we’re going to see 150 men, cardinals, in a room, deciding which man is going to lead a global congregation that is at least 60 per cent female. Is the church dealing itself out of the modern world or does it prefer the old world where women getting power just didn’t exist?

Fr FB: Ever more young people have that mindset, saying, why would you discriminate on the basis of gender in relation to any role? I think this is something which the church just hasn’t adapted to and desperately needs to. Pope Benedict allowed many married Anglican priests to come across to Rome, so I would hope the next pope would allow men to marry before their ordination.

Fitz: OK, well, seeing as we’re getting on so well, let me go further. Across human history it is obvious to me that when circumstances deny any large group of men normal sexual outlet with women – be it in prisons, on ships, or in the Catholic Church – the sexual drive of a significant number will find an outlet anyway, with the most vulnerable among them. Therefore, it is obvious to me that if the Catholic Church does not abandon celibacy, and allow priests to marry, it will always struggle with the problem of child abuse in one form or another, no matter what reforms they make. Is that obvious to you?

Fr FB: It’s obvious to me that, yes, there will be a minority of those who have made a commitment to celibacy who will break it, and that is a devastating problem, particularly in relation to those who are paedophiles. I readily acknowledge that, and that’s why I say of course the safeguards have to be very firmly in place. But where we probably differ is, while there has been a particular focus on the Catholic Church, it’s only now we’re starting to see the extent of abuse elsewhere as well, particularly in state schools and other institutions. But that’s not to run away from your point, which I accept.

Fitz: I admire your work on matters Indigenous and speaking out for the Voice, among other things. Are you disappointed that Aboriginal affairs is not an issue in this current election?

Fr FB: Absolutely, absolutely. And, in fact, I tried to get a couple of people, when they were going to leaders’ debates, to try and raise with Mr Albanese that when he was leader of the opposition and Scott Morrison was prime minister, they were jointly committed to at least legislating a Voice. So why not at least get a commitment to that now? I think the referendum result was a complete disaster for the country, and a real tragedy for First Nations Australians.

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Fitz: OK, on the current polls you’ll be aware there’s a real chance that Peter Dutton’s kind of politics will have to retreat and the next Liberal leader will be a moderate, if they can find one. Are you filled with hope that, if that happened, the new Liberal leader and Anthony Albanese could unite to resuscitate the Voice?

Fr FB: I’m confident they could resuscitate it in legislative form. I am not confident they could resuscitate it in constitutional form.

Fitz: Last thing. In all your time working in so many fields, did you never question your faith?

Fr FB: I’ve never doubted my faith. There have been times when I’ve doubted my life choice, wondering, “have I just wasted my life doing this sort of thing?” But no, I’ve never doubted my faith.

Fitz: But just while we’re talking man to man, not man to priest, Father, what a hell of a decision you took all those years ago, to forgo women, to forgo marriage, to forgo children!

Fr FB: You don’t have to tell me! But, I mean, I’ve had one big consolation. I’m the eldest of seven children and have a large family, with lots of nieces and nephews, many of whom now have children of their own. And it’s just wonderful when we’re all together.

Fitz: Sure, but as I say to my friend Monsignor Tony Doherty, who’s now in his early 90s, “Monsignor, it’s not too late! I’ll have the car outside, we’ll break you and the red-headed nun down the hall out at dawn, and I’ll have you over the border by sundown and secreted in a safe house!”

Fr FB: [Laughing.] Not for me. In any case, this past 18 months I’ve had very aggressive prostate cancer and I’m now on hormone therapy and all the rest. So probably some of the desires have dissipated anyway. I am happy with the life I have lived. And some of my best friends are women who understand me and enrich my life.

Fitz: Thank you for your time.